Set up, I´m confused

[Haggis]

Hello!

I have started the set up of my first build. I use the book "guitar making tradition & technology" as my guide for this.

In the setup chapter Step 10, I´m supposed to check the neck relief by measuring the clearance between the top of the sixth fret and the string, while pressing down the string on the first and 14th fret. The value should be between 0.8 mm and 0.4 mm.
When I press the string down on the 1st fret I have app. 1.2 mm clearance
When I press the string down on the 14th fret the clearance is 0.35 mm

If I adjust the truss rod to get the 1.2 mm down to 0.8 mm, then my 0.35 mm clearance would go down as well, and I´ll get fret buzz. So it seems impossible to get it right.

Also the neck is almost flat at this point with basically no neck relief..

Even if I have this problem, the guitar is quite easy to play. I haven´t adjusted the nut yet, but with a capo on the first it´s sounds very good.

häggis

[ken cierp]

Sounds to me like you've leap frogged some very important set up steps -- you can't adjust relief, action and intonation without first having the saddle and the nut slots at their optimum heights.

This will give you some clues:

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/saddle.html

I personally rely on the information that the guitar in my hands is telling me -- dimensions relayed in the different books etc. vary widely. Cumpiano means well.

If you have zero neck relief you most certainly can expect buzzing. Most time you need a tiny bit clearance, the string vibrates in a circular motion -- not side to side as some visualize.

[TonyinNYC]

Haggis,
I set up like this:
Check that I have relief. I capo the first fret and press down at the 14th fret. If I can hear a click when I push the string down between those frets, I have relief and I go no further with that step. If I didn't have any relief, with the strings at full tension, I have a problem since I use single action truss rods. So far, I have had a small amount of relief. I have never measured it.
Set the action at the nut. Ken has excellent instructions on his site for doing this quickly and accurately here:
http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/zerofret.html
Set action at the 12th by adjusting the saddle. Ken also has very clear, accurate instructions for this at the link he posted originally.

Once these steps are done, if I have leveled my frets properly, I have no issues. If I have a buzz or two, I track them down and work them out. I set my action low so I expect buzzing when I beat on the guitar, but for normal strumming, I get clean, buzz free sounds with 2/64ths and 4/64ths at the high and low E strings respectively. At least I think that is what I use. I have not set up a guitar since last summer.

Just one more thing, you should not need a huge amount of relief in the neck.

[Dave Bagwill]

Here's another approach that some techs use. Worth reading, I think, and asking questions about. Don't know where I got it. Everything that follows is from the net, not from me:


Remember, to achieve that perfect guitar setup, you will have to make three adjustments: the neck relief (curvature of the neck), the saddle height, and the nut slot depths. If you do these things in the wrong order, then what you have already done will be messed up by the next thing you do, and you'll end up in some bizarre loop that will probably lead you into total frustration. However, if you make your three adjustments in this order:
1. Neck Relief
2. Saddle Height
3. Nut Slot Depths
and you do Step 2 in manner that is slightly different from what many people will tell you (you will take the measurements for the saddle height with a capo on the first fret), then each of the three steps will leave the results of the previous step(s) completely unchanged. Hence, you'll get to your perfect setup in just three steps, with no backtracking necessary.
As I said in the introduction, you won't need any fancy tools for the task at hand. There is one tool, though, that I will mention, and that is the set of automotive feeler gauges that you need to take your measurements. Any standard set with a range of something like .002'' to .035'' will do.
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1. Setting the Neck Relief
To set the neck relief, first place a capo on the first fret. Next, with one finger, press the sixth string (lower E) down onto the fourteenth fret. The lower E string should now touch the first and fourteenth frets. Because of the enormous tension of the string, the string gives you a perfectly straight line between the cusps of the first and fourteenth fret.
The neck relief (forward curvature of the neck) that you're after can now be measured with a feeler gauge as a gap between the string and the cusp of the seventh fret. What most guitar manufacturers and luthiers recommend as a rule of thumb is a .010'' gap between the string and the seventh fret. I have yet to see a guitar and a playing style for which a .010'' neck relief did not work very well. I would recommend that you just go for that value and be done with it.
It is true that in rare cases, you can get away with a little less than .010'' of neck relief, and this will result in slightly better playability overall. However, unless you really want to become an expert at all this, I doubt that it is worth your time exploring different neck reliefs. If you really want to go there, you'll find some advice at the end of this page. For now, there is just one important thing to bear in mind: once you have chosen a neck relief and have completed the entire setup, you do not want to go back and decrease the neck relief. The reason is that decreasing the neck relief will lower the action at the first fret. To get the first fret action back to the correct value, you would have to raise the nut slots, and that is the one thing that's very hard to do.
If the neck relief is different from what you want, you change it by adjusting the truss rod according to your manufacturer's or luthier's instructions.
On many guitars, the nut that adjusts the neck relief is at the top end of the truss rod, inside the headstock. All you have to do is remove the little cover plate and adjust the nut. The picture below shows a Taylor 810 with a combination tool that usually comes with the guitar. Also, one of Taylor's many tech sheets explains everything about adjusting the truss rod on their guitars.

Once you've adjusted the neck relief to your preference, you should perform the measurement at the seventh fret as described above for the first (upper E) string as well. The measurements should come out roughly the same, say, to within a tolerance of 10-20 percent. If there is a dramatic difference, then your guitar's neck is seriously warped, and there is probably not much point in spending any more time on setup.
As I mentioned before, it is often possible to get away with a tad less than .010'' of neck relief, but it's questionable if it is worth the trouble to find out. Unless you're a real stickler for perfection, skip the rest of this page and continue on to the next step.
If you really have to, here's how you go about finding the least possible neck relief:
Set the neck relief to a very low value, like .005''. If you're an uncurable optimist, you may even start with no neck relief at all. Then go to the next step of the setup, where you set the saddle height. As you try to find the minimal saddle height, you will probably find that string buzz occurs in the lower frets (second or third fret) way before it occurs higher up. That means you've got too little neck relief. Increase the neck relief a bit, then work on your saddle height again. Repeat until you don't find that buzz in the lower frets is significantly worse than buzz in the higher frets. By the time that happens, your neck relief will probably be right around .010'', which was the recommended value to begin with.
Now do the third and last step of the setup, where you set the nut slot depths. If you actually ended up with less than .010'' of neck relief after the above iterations, you may still not be good. The low neck relief may cause behind-the-fret buzz. Behind-the-fret buzz occurs when you fret a string at fret x (with your finger or with a capo), and then the "dead part" of the string between the string nut and fret x buzzes on one or more of the frets below fret x. One of the things that neck relief does is to prevent this buzzing by creating a tiny gap between the "dead part" of the string and the frets beneath it.
So if you have less than .010'' of neck relief and notice behind-the-fret buzz, it's back to the truss rod: increase your neck relief a tad, and go through the remaining steps of the setup (saddle height and nut slot depths) again. It is of course also possible to counteract behind-the-fret buzz by leaving the first fret action a bit higher, that is, by having less nut slot depth. But the consequences of a higher first fret action are so unpleasant that I very much doubt you want to go for that option. The bottom line is that the .010'' neck relief is hard to beat.
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2. Setting the Saddle Height
When it comes to adjusting the saddle height, there are two schools concerning the way the measurements should be taken. The twelfth-fret school will tell you to just measure the gaps between the strings and the twelfth fret. The thirteenth-fret school will tell you to put a capo on the first fret and then measure the gaps between the strings and the thirteenth fret. It should be clear that both ways will give you meaningful, reproducible results. The only thing to be kept in mind is that one and the same saddle height will give you slightly lower readings at the thirteenth fret with a capo on the first fret than at the twelfth fret with no capo. Hence, you have to stick with one way of doing it. Moreover, once you've chosen your affiliation, you cannot use the numbers of someone who belongs to the other school.
If all you do is adjust your saddle height, and you don't care much about the other aspects of your setup, then any of the two schools is as good as the other. However, if you want to follow my complete procedure and end up with the right neck relief, saddle height, and nut slot depths, then you very much want to go with the thirteenth fret school. The reason is that the twelfth fret measurement will change when you do your nut slots. The thirteenth fret measurement, on the other hand, is independent of what goes on at the string nut because of the capo on the first fret. That way, none of the steps in my three-step procedure will affect the result of any earlier step, and hence, no backtracking is necessary.
So what are the right measurements then? That depends entirely on your playing style, the strings you use, and, to some extent, the individual guitar. What you want to achieve, of course, is to have your saddle just barely high enough so that you don't get any buzz except in those rare cases where you actually want it for effect. I really shouldn't give you any numbers at all and let you find out for yourself instead. For what it's worth, here's a set of thirteenth fret clearances that many people find just about right:
E A D G B E
.100'' .095'' .090'' .085'' .080'' .075''
Please note that these are values that will guarantee buzz-free playing for almost any guitar and playing style; if your playing style is on the soft side, you may be able to subtract .010'' or more from the values in the table above.
On many guitars, you can get away with less clearance for the high E string. Therefore, you'll often see clearances like this:
E A D G B E
.100'' .095'' .090'' .085'' .080'' .070''
For my playing style, I find that I need a little more clearance on the B string. Therefore, my settings typically look like this:
E A D G B E
.100'' .095'' .090'' .085'' .085'' .075''


Very important: When you measure the gap between a string and the thirteenth fret, make sure that your guitar rests on the back of its body, while the entire neck, including the headstock, does not touch the supporting surface. If the guitar rests not only on the body, but also on the headstock, that will be enough to bend the neck slightly forward and render your measurement irreproducible and hence useless.

Unless you are detemined to make your own saddle from scratch and get the optimal clearance for each string, you can probably get away with just measuring the clearance for the sixth string (lower E) and let the others take care of themselves. Here's what you do: order a bunch of ready made saddles for your particular guitar model from the manufacturer of your guitar or from a lutherie supply store such as Stewart-MacDonald. Start with one that's too high and work your way down by sanding it off at the bottom. What you want to achieve is to lower the saddle uniformly without changing the relative height of the strings. That way, you'll end up with your personal preferred absolute height and with the manufacturer's relative height of the strings.
If you have a precision tool such as Stewart-MacDonald's Sanding Station at your disposal, then it's a cinch to sand off the bottom of the saddle in a uniform manner. If you have to rely on manual sanding, then this is a little tricky. You will almost certainly inadvertently angle the saddle as you sand off material at the bottom. An easy way to check and correct as you go along is as follows: Make sure that you start out with two saddles of the exact same height and shape. As you go along lowering one of them, keep putting it on a level surface right next to the other, unmodified one. Place the lower one on an appropriate blade from your set of feeler gauges to make them the same height. A very precise way of checking for equal height is to take a third saddle and center it horizontally over the two saddles whose height you compare:

By sliding the horizontal saddle from one end of the two vertical saddles to the other, you can now check whether the heights of the two saddles are the same all across, or if you have angled the one you're working on. If that's the case, you can now counteract with your sandpaper until the angling has gone away.
As you take material off the saddle's bottom, you also need to make sure that the saddle does not lean forward or backward. This can be checked by placing the saddle on an even surface and then using a square ruler to check if it rises from the surface at a right angle.

Here's what I do when I need to make a saddle lower: I clamp a piece of sandpaper to a level surface and then run the saddle back and forth on it, turning it frequently to make up for any directional prejudice that my hand may have when exerting downward pressure. To prevent leaning, I place a 1/8 inch saddle blank on the sand paper and press the side of saddle against it, thus keeping it vertical relative to the sand paper.
If you're going to make saddles (or string nuts) from scratch, you want at least a small vise such as Stewart-MacDonald's Nut and Saddle Vise. The Porsche of nut and saddle tools, of course, would be their Sanding Station.

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3.Setting the Nut Slot Depths
The third and final step of setting up your guitar is to cut the slots in the string nut to a depth where you get the optimal first fret clearance for each string. Rather obviously, you want that clearance to be as low as possible, because the higher it is, the more your fingers will hurt when fretting the strings at the first few frets. Moreover, the intonation of your guitar will suffer (that is, your chords will be off even with perfect tuning) when the strings are two high above the first fret.
So if we want the strings to be as low as possible on the nut, then what is the lower bound? One constraint is of course that the open, unfretted strings should never buzz on the first fret. However, there is another thing to be kept in mind: raising the strings at the nut will also prevent the behind-the-fret buzz that I mentioned earlier. Therefore, your ideal first fret clearance is usually a tad more than what you would absolutely need to prevent the open string from buzzing. That is true especially if you prefer less neck relief. My preferred values for the first fret action are .022'' for the sixth string (lower E) and .018 for the first string (upper E), with the rest of them pretty much evenly spaced in between.
When you buy a new guitar, you can almost be guaranteed that the nut slots are not deep enough. I have seen expensive guitars that came with as much as .035'' of first fret clearance, truly a finger killer. To cut the nut slots deeper, get yorself a good set of nut slot files, e.g. from Stewart-MacDonald. For each nut slot, select a file that is as wide or a tad wider than the diameter of the respective string. (Making the slot too narrow will cause the string to bind in the slot, with very unpleasant consequences.) To work on a particular slot, take off the respective string, but make sure that all the other strings are on and tuned up, so that the neck is pretty much in the same position as it is normally when you play. Then cut the nut slot deeper with your file, angling it downward a bit towards the headstock.
Blow the dust out of the slot, put the string back on, and take another measurement.
Needless to say, you want to do all this in many, many tiny iterations so that you don't cut the slots too deep. When I said earlier that performing a guitar setup is not hard, I didn't mean replacing the string nut. That can be done, but it poses challenges and should not be attempted unless you know exactly what you're doing. Some people say that you can also fill in a nut slot that's too deep with a mixture of glue and filing dust, but quite frankly, that combination of messiness and subtleness is too much for me to even want to attempt. Just be careful and don't cut the nut slots too deep. In particular, make absolutely sure that you have performed and double-checked the first two steps of the setup, neck relief and saddle height. If you do the nut slots first and then later have to decrease the neck relief or lower the saddle, your strings will be too low at the first fret, that is, your nut slots will be too deep and there you are in the deep doo-doo that you worked so hard to avoid.


Stability of the Setup
Unless you live in a laboratory environment, keeping the level of humidification of your guitar constant is virtually impossible. As a consequence, the top of your guitar will rise and sink—as explained in Section "First Things First: Proper Humidifiation"—even if you stay pretty much within the recommended 40% to 60% humidity range. Therefore, the action of your guitar will not always stay exactly where you originally set it. On many guitars, the neck relief will not be very stable either. I have not been able to correlate these fluctuations of the neck relief with humidity, temperature, or any other outside influence. All I know is that it doesn't always stay in one place.
There is not very much you can do about this lack of stability of the setup. The bottom line is that you'll have to be able to play your guitar with the setup varying within certain limits. That's part of a guitar player's life.
If, on the other hand, you're a real stickler for an exact setup, like I am, you may be interested to hear how I deal with the problem: I check the setup every single time before playing. If it is outside of my comfort zone, which it is very frequently, I first adjust the neck relief, if necessary. Then I drop in one of a whole array of saddles of different heights that I carry around with me in my guitar case. That way, I have the neck relief and the thirteenth-fret action right, and the first fret action will come out right by itself, because the one thing that does not fluctuate is the nut slot depth. The whole thing is a big pain in the neck (no pun intended), but it's worth it for me.
There you have it, my take on acoustic steel string guitar setup. Good luck, and enjoy!

[Kyle Barbour]

Wow! It would take me all week to type that up. Nice explanation.

[Tom West]

RE: Dave Bagwell's post of the steps for set-up. I think the steps are in the wrong sequence. For me, it should be 1. Relief 2. Nut 3. Action by adjustment of the saddle. If one adjusts the saddle before the nut, the clearances one has worked to achieve at the 12th fret will be changed. Where as doing the nut first to set the nut slots at fret height and then setting action by working on the saddle ensures that new problems will not happen. Surprised no one has pick up on this.
Tom

[Dave Bagwill]

Don't forget that the method capo's off at the first fret, taking the nut out of consideration. So first relief, then set action at the saddle, then capo off and then work the nut.
I'm not saying it the 'right' way - too smart to say that LOL - but it does work well and has a logic to it.
Whatever works.

BTW the method is Brian Kimsey's; I just clipped it directly from his web site.