Yes, the Lee Valley Veritas & Lie Nielsen block planes are considered the best, but they cost almost twice as much as the Stanley 123-139 Bailey No. 60-1/2 "Sweetheart" plane.
My question: Do I get twice the plane for twice the money with the Veritas/Lie Nielsen brands, or is the re-release of the Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 a good bargain and useful tool for the money? Reviewers on Amazon rate it 4 out of 5 stars, with most loving it and a few hating it.
Anyone here using the new Stanley 60-1/2?
Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 vs Veritas/Lie Nielsen?
Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 vs Veritas/Lie Nielsen?
Last edited by Jim Ball on Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 vs Veritas/Lie Nielsen?
I have a "vintage" Stanley Sweetheart and a couple of new Veritas planes. Ron Hock makes the point that the main function of the plane is to hold the blade. It is the blade that does the work. But there is no doubt the Veritas planes hold their blades steadier and allow for greater accuracy when replacing them after sharpening, compared to Stanleys. Twice as good? I doubt it, just noticeably better, very noticeably better.
I don't own a Lie-Nielsen. They are a little more expensive than Veritas. While extremely well made by every report, they are designed like the old Stanleys and apparently require a little more finesse to adjust. Lie-Nielsen designs are very appealing to look at. People who have them love them. Same can be said for Veritas. I love mine. Both brands come ready to use with no need to fine tune. Stanleys can be improved functionally with a little elbow grease, a milled flat chunk of granite, and some abrasive.
Old Stanleys have their appeal too. Here is a No.4 I recently restored. It is outfitted with a Hock blade and cap iron.
I use either Hock or Veritas blades (and cap irons) on all my old planes. The blades on all of them, including the Sweetheart, are a little too thin to suit me. Veritas has a new steel that Brian Burns thinks is very good and I agree; it is called PM-V11. It is as easy to sharpen as Hock's O1 oil-quenched blade but holds an edge twice as long as an air quenched A2. A2 does not sharpen quite as well as an O1, but holds its edge better. A2 costs slightly more than O1. PM-V11 cost a little more than A2.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.a ... 43698&ap=1
When you think about it, wooden planes such as the Japanese use to great fame, are less precise than most metal versions, and certainly way less exotic than the $4k dovetail jointed British crafted ultra planes. After watching a few videos of expert Japanese work their wood with those planes I concluded it is the woodworker, the blade, then the plane body, in that order, that affect the result.
Ron Hock offers a number of wooden plane kits, spokeshave kits, carving knives and blades, kitchen knife blades, scraper blades, and of course block plane blades. His stuff is first class.
http://www.hocktools.com/products.htm
I have trouble controlling my credit card when I visit Ron's site. It leaps out of my wallet, types itself in, and presses an ungodly number of buy buttons, all on its own. Ron Hock must love it.
I don't own a Lie-Nielsen. They are a little more expensive than Veritas. While extremely well made by every report, they are designed like the old Stanleys and apparently require a little more finesse to adjust. Lie-Nielsen designs are very appealing to look at. People who have them love them. Same can be said for Veritas. I love mine. Both brands come ready to use with no need to fine tune. Stanleys can be improved functionally with a little elbow grease, a milled flat chunk of granite, and some abrasive.
Old Stanleys have their appeal too. Here is a No.4 I recently restored. It is outfitted with a Hock blade and cap iron.
- Vintage No.4 Smoother
- Bailey4.jpg (99.24 KiB) Viewed 2170 times
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.a ... 43698&ap=1
When you think about it, wooden planes such as the Japanese use to great fame, are less precise than most metal versions, and certainly way less exotic than the $4k dovetail jointed British crafted ultra planes. After watching a few videos of expert Japanese work their wood with those planes I concluded it is the woodworker, the blade, then the plane body, in that order, that affect the result.
Ron Hock offers a number of wooden plane kits, spokeshave kits, carving knives and blades, kitchen knife blades, scraper blades, and of course block plane blades. His stuff is first class.
http://www.hocktools.com/products.htm
I have trouble controlling my credit card when I visit Ron's site. It leaps out of my wallet, types itself in, and presses an ungodly number of buy buttons, all on its own. Ron Hock must love it.
John
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Dave Bagwill
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Re: Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 vs Veritas/Lie Nielsen?
Nice restoration, John.
I hire a team of ex-SEALS to keep me from my visa card when visiting Lee Valley...it's cheaper to hire them than to have the visa go berserker on me. :-)
I hire a team of ex-SEALS to keep me from my visa card when visiting Lee Valley...it's cheaper to hire them than to have the visa go berserker on me. :-)
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John Parchem
- Posts: 2746
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:33 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Contact:
Re: Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 vs Veritas/Lie Nielsen?
I have the Stanley Sweetheart bench plane and was not that impressed. I also have Lie Nielsen and Veritas planes. I am not an expert on planes so my judgement is purely based on getting it out of the box and using it (I can sharpen the blades). I have no idea what makes one good or bad.
My Lie Nielsen low angle block plane is one of my favorite and probably the most used tool in my shop. I used it for four years now. The blade holds an edge so basically when I need it it is sharp and ready to go. I like to have sharpening days usually at the beginning of a project, not every time I want to use the tool.
I have a huge Veritas bevel up jointer plane that I use for jointing plates and squaring on neck blanks. It is a great tool.
Another manufacture to consider is Wood River at Woodcraft. These are knockoff Chinese made planes that Woodcraft had manufactures when Lie Nielsen pulled their line from them going to a direct sales model. I have a no 4 bench plane that performs like an absolute dream. I have no idea what makes it different from the Stanley, I can just say that out of the box and with normal sharpening it is a lot nicer to use and it cost around the same as the sweetheart.
My Lie Nielsen low angle block plane is one of my favorite and probably the most used tool in my shop. I used it for four years now. The blade holds an edge so basically when I need it it is sharp and ready to go. I like to have sharpening days usually at the beginning of a project, not every time I want to use the tool.
I have a huge Veritas bevel up jointer plane that I use for jointing plates and squaring on neck blanks. It is a great tool.
Another manufacture to consider is Wood River at Woodcraft. These are knockoff Chinese made planes that Woodcraft had manufactures when Lie Nielsen pulled their line from them going to a direct sales model. I have a no 4 bench plane that performs like an absolute dream. I have no idea what makes it different from the Stanley, I can just say that out of the box and with normal sharpening it is a lot nicer to use and it cost around the same as the sweetheart.
Re: Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 vs Veritas/Lie Nielsen?
You all know by now how much I like the Veritas model - much as Ken's - take inspiration from traditional designs and approaches, and work to improve them. I have both the Low Angle Block, and Low Angle Jack planes. While the LA Block get the most use, I've used the LA jack for a number of things around the shop and house the past few months - truing a banjo neck before attaching the fingerboard, jointing boards to back a little cabinet, shooting to length a number of moldings, tapering legs for two shaker style end tables.
I have older Stanley No. 5 and No. 6 planes, not the coveted vintage models, but from the 60's I believe. With a lot of tuning they have improved greatly, as have my planing skills, but they don't approach the performance of the Veritas. With a new Hock iron they would likely come closer, but for now they are used for quick/rough stock removal, if at all.
So far the PMV-11 iron is living up to the hype - keenness of O2 with the edge retention equal to or better than A2. My block has a 25degree O2 and an A2 that usually has a micro bevel of 40 - the O2 is much quicker to sharpen. The Norris-style blade adjuster works very well for me - some love it, others would much prefer the Lie Nielsen approach, a gentle tap of a hammer to set plane depth.
The side set screws also have proven to be a great feature vs. the Stanleys (I can't speak to the Lie Nielsen on this one, as I've not spent much time resetting irons in the LN) - they, combined with the mouth adjustment stop screw do make returning to your previous setting much quicker.
The Veritas and Lie Nielsen also feel quite different in the hand - the tote angle and profile difference are more pronounced than photos would lead you to believe - your choice may come down to how it fits you. On the other hand if you're only going to use them very rarely, fit may not matter much at all.
Hand tools are as personal a choice as any, and tough to say what is worth it. There is great satisfaction in picking up an impeccably designed tool, that is well crafted - it compliments the moves you want to make, and becomes a part of your working process.
I have older Stanley No. 5 and No. 6 planes, not the coveted vintage models, but from the 60's I believe. With a lot of tuning they have improved greatly, as have my planing skills, but they don't approach the performance of the Veritas. With a new Hock iron they would likely come closer, but for now they are used for quick/rough stock removal, if at all.
So far the PMV-11 iron is living up to the hype - keenness of O2 with the edge retention equal to or better than A2. My block has a 25degree O2 and an A2 that usually has a micro bevel of 40 - the O2 is much quicker to sharpen. The Norris-style blade adjuster works very well for me - some love it, others would much prefer the Lie Nielsen approach, a gentle tap of a hammer to set plane depth.
The side set screws also have proven to be a great feature vs. the Stanleys (I can't speak to the Lie Nielsen on this one, as I've not spent much time resetting irons in the LN) - they, combined with the mouth adjustment stop screw do make returning to your previous setting much quicker.
The Veritas and Lie Nielsen also feel quite different in the hand - the tote angle and profile difference are more pronounced than photos would lead you to believe - your choice may come down to how it fits you. On the other hand if you're only going to use them very rarely, fit may not matter much at all.
Hand tools are as personal a choice as any, and tough to say what is worth it. There is great satisfaction in picking up an impeccably designed tool, that is well crafted - it compliments the moves you want to make, and becomes a part of your working process.
Re: Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 vs Veritas/Lie Nielsen?
Daniel,
Those are impressively thin and uniform shavings.
Those are impressively thin and uniform shavings.
John
Re: Stanley Sweetheart 60-1/2 vs Veritas/Lie Nielsen?
I appreciate all the advice and comments. You all have convinced me to spend my money wisely, even if I have to spend a little more. I'll be ordering a Veritas low angle block plane when I get my next SS check. :D I may even spring for the PM-V11 blade. I have a Tormek sharpening system I use to keep my chisels and turning tools sharp, so I should have no problems keeping the plane sharp.