Acoustic Guitar Construction

Segrave or Behlen,,,,,,,,or do you have another favorite?

I’m about to buy some nitrocellulose lacquer, sealer & thinner. I’ve never sprayed lacquer before so I’m not familiar with the different brands. Segrave seems like the logical choice since it is the old McFadden formula but I’ve read a lot of good reviews about Behlen also. I believe I want to use an instrument designed formula unless there is no real reason to. I DO NOT like the look of checking, crazing, finish cracks, etcetera ……. So I’m more than willing to pay more for a product that will increase the chance of not developing any down the road.

Best place to purchase Nitro Lacquer?

Opinions appreciated.


George

If you are horrified by checks, cracks and crazing -- then do not use nitro lacquer or French polish. Those conditons have more to do with how the completed instrument was finish processed and cared for, than what product was used. Martin does not and did not use Macfadden, Gibson on the other hand does and did. Sherwin William's water white lacquer was used years ago and was somewhat of a problem -- that chemical is not made any longer. You will certainly find internet stories of sorrow regarding finish issues on Gibson's and for that matter instruments finished with Behlens (I know of no factory that uses Behlen's). On the other hand I have a guitar here in the shop that is 30 or so years old finished with Deft and it has zero finish issues. I believe Deft was Don Teeter's finish of choice.

Seagrave has a very strong lingering odor, reminds me of Tester's model airplane dope. Segraves seems on average to be a little harder then Behlen's once completely dry -- I never really tested it. Anyway I'll say it again --- there are dozens of different products that have been used with great success. The modern finishes that seem bullet proof are poly -- ester or urathane. If you feel comfortable buying a finish with "instrument" in the name by all means do that -- but keep in mind that there are products like LMII k9? which I understand is actually formulated for exterior composite doors -- go figure?

I'm hearing Cardinal is an excellent nitro (LuthierLac). Supposedly cures harder and sooner than other brands. I will be trying it when my current supply runs out.

I realize that checking is a result related more to neglect than application but guitars are more susceptible to temp and humidity than bedroom furniture. That’s why I asked if it's better to go with lacquer formulated for instruments. I live in a region that is “Finish Friendly”…. The winters are mild and the humidity hovers a little above and below 50%.

I ordered Cardinal. It sounds like what I’m after. Poly might be ok but I think nitro is the way to go.


George

My local Lowes carries Deft nitro in cans for brushing and rattle cans for spraying. I have finished 7 or 8 guitars with Deft and I have had zero issues with crazing or adhesion. The only guitar that has had a problem is the one I gave to my brother. But that was user error. He insisted on putting he guitar on a stand with vinyl holders for the guitar. In every spot where the box touches the stand, the finish has softened, but again, it is not the fault of the nitro. Frank Ford has a whole section on vinyl and nitro lacquer on his site. They don't play well with each other. The rest of my guitars are all perfect.

Sent this out this morning to Cardinal -- the finishing schedule is at the end

From: info@kmg.com [mailto:admin@kennethmichaelguitars.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 6:42 AM
To: macs@cardinalpaint.com
Subject: acoustic guitar finishing

Good morning,We are having a discussion regarding your products at my Acoustic Guitar Construction Forum. Some members are considering switching to your standard gloss nitro lacquer. First I should mention that your website is not working properly and many of the click and drop downs are useless -- nothing happens? Anyway I am looking for your published finishing schedule for your air dry filler, vinyl sealer and gloss top coat -- I would appreciate if you could direct me or send a copy. Also -- Pacer Zpoxy is quickly becoming a favorite product for pore filling. I have been told by their techs that compatibility with nitro lacquer is not an issue. Do you see any problems if used with your sealer and top coating? Thank you in advance, Ken Cierpilowski

RE: acoustic guitar finishing
Tuesday, April 9, 2013 11:01 AM
From:
"Mac Schurmeier" <MacS@CardinalPaint.Com>
Add sender to Contacts
To:
"'info@kmg.com'" <admin@kennethmichaelguitars.com>



Hi Ken

As far as I can tell the website is working for me what type of browser/ computer are you using?

Attached is the tds and finishing products you requested. As far as the zpoxy product I know several of customers are using with good results in combination with our products. I would just recommend sanding the filler to 220 before recoating. Please let me know if you have any other questions or comments. You may also want to keep in mind that we do sell direct for 4 gallons or more.

All the best








Musical Instrument Coatings
Nitrocellulose Lacquer Finishing Process

Step 1- Sand bare wood with a coarse grit sandpaper (180-220) Clean off surface with air or solvent on oily woods.
Step 2- Stain wood if desired
Step 3- Seal wood with Cardinal’s Vinyl Sealer 2059-CLE18773. Color/Stain may also be added to the sealer.
Apply two thin coats 5-10 minutes apart. Allow to cure for 15-30 minutes. If you do not recoat the same day you need to scuff the sealer before applying lacquer.
Step 4- Use Cardinal 4760 grain fill over vinyl sealer. Apply sparingly!!! Reduce with Mineral Spirits or Naptha if desired.
Use a paper towel, brush, or gloved hand to fill. Use burlap to remove excess filler.
Allow to cure for 24-48 hours before cleaning with sandpaper or a light abrasive pad.
Check data sheet for more info.
Filling can be repeated if desired.
Step 5: Ensure clean surface. Reapply Cardinal vinyl sealer 2059-CLE18773.
Two thin coats, allow to cure for 15-30 minutes. Scuff if sealer is not recoated the same day
Step 6: Apply 2079-CLE17937 Ready to Spray Gloss Lacquer.
Reduce with Cardinal’s 1200-08 lacquer thinner up to 10% if desired.
Use Butyl Cellusolve in humid environments as a retarder if needed.
Spray 3- 5 thin coats (1 mill wet or less) 15-30 minutes apart.
Let dry overnight, dry times and application may vary depending on environment.
Check data sheets for more info.
Step 7: Level sand with 220-400 grit. Clean surface! Repeat step 6 until desired thickness is accomplished. Usually 8-15 coats or 3 days of topcoat finishing.
Step 8: After you have achieve desired thickness with Lacquer.
Step 9: Begin final sand with 600-800 grit. Wet sand up to 1000-2000 + grit sandpaper.
Step 10: Wait 7-10 days before buffing with commercial buffing wheel, using number 16 or 18 buffing compound.
Always test process on sample pieces before finishing your Musical Instrument!!

IMPORTANT: Warranty and Disclaimer – The performance characteristics of these product vary according to the product application, operating conditions, materials applied to or use. Since these factors can affect results, we strongly recommend that you make your own tests to determine your satisfaction whether the product is of acceptable quality, has not been affected by storage or transportation and is suitable for your particular purpose under your own operating conditions prior to using any product in full scale production. Seller warrants the products to be free from defects in materials and workmanship. SUCH WARRANTY IS EXCLUSIVE AND IS IN LIEU OF ANY OTHER WARRANTY, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. No representative of ours has authority to waive or change this provision, which applies to all sales of these products.
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I went back on the site and didn't have a problem with the drop downs. Schedule looks favorable compared to others. The price is a bit higher. I have heard it's much cheaper when you buy 4 gallons direct but that's a lot of guitars for the small time guy like me. Buying and re-shipping may or may not be worth it if you could find interested others.