Epoxied butt style neck joint

[ken cierp]

Hi John,
You can just add "John" to your profile signature, its ok to link your website as well. Let me look through our files and see what comes up for "industrial strength Epoxy" I suggest that you contact "Bob Smith Industries" very helpful guys/gals and may have a product that suits your needs.

[Robert Hosmer]

Master Bond is another possible source.
Tell them your needs, and their engineers can create a custom concoction for you. Most likely they already have a formula in stock that will cover our needs, though.

[Bob Moore]

I see this thread has been around for a while, but I just came back into the fold so to speak.
Right now I'm futzing (I like that word even though it's probably not a word) with a dovetail joint from an old Martin kit that I had originally started several years ago. I'm somewhat comfortable that when I glue this jewel in that it will work. I've asked opinions of people who I respect. At any rate, mastering a dovetail joint would probably take me at least 3-10 more guitars, and I don't have that luxury. I don't know how many more I will build. I've done two guitars with mortise & tenon bolt on with mixed, limited success. For some reason, the neck to body joint gives me problems. I don't know if it's just a block, or ineptitude. But I need to get "ept" at some point.
I do have a friend, Stephen Kinnaird, who's been a Luthier for 30+ years (possibly well over 30), and his shop uses strictly butt joints with no glue except under the fretboard. Just uses the tension from the bolts. I've played his guitars and they are really, really good both for hard strumming or fingerstyle. He does not feel that he loses anything as far as tone, volume, sustain by using that type connection. I may have overstated by saying "anything", but my feeling after visiting with him this week and discussing this, is that he is very satisfied with that joint. Obviously if a neck reset were needed, a heating blanket over the fretboard extension and a wrench would make it very easy. Steve is well respected in the AGF forum that I frequent, and I think in the community of small shop luthiers as well.
This thread has been very enlightening, and it's been very good because nobody has come in and trashed any of the methods.
Whether bolt on mortise & tenon or dovetail, I have a mental block about making those joints fit properly and look good. Of course, I've only done 2 bolt on's and 1 dovetail, so it's not a big sample.
What do you guys think of Steve's approach?
Advantages I see are that once the body is built correctly, proper neck angle can be determined with a bevel gauge pretty easily. Then that angle set into the neck heel. Two bolts properly aligned and secured in the neck. Then the neck and body should look pretty good together with minimum fuss. Disadvantages - It's scary at first thought to trust two bolts and some glue under a fingerboard.
I'd appreciate your thoughts, thanks,
Bob

[Dave Bagwill]

Hi Bob - I have used only two bolts, no glue under the fretboard extension, m&t joint on all the guitars I've built and I'm teaching a few guys the same way. And over the years there have been exactly no problems.
It's the way I learned (KMG), but I never was involved in the whole dovetail tradition. I know that the tradition has a real hold on a whole generation of luthiers and guitar players and I don't doubt it is hard to break away from it, in spite of all the proof of the integrity and benefits of a bolt-on system.
Break away, Bob! - is my recommendation. :-) Neck resets are a lot easier, naturally, and if the extension is not glued down it is a real snap to adjust the neck.
Also, copy the practice of the Martin factory in this: keep a few bridges around, some a little thinner, some a little thicker, and use the one that fits your neck angle and top configuration.
Good luck!

[ken cierp]

Steve's approach is simply Bob Taylor's early neck joint used a few years before his high tech joint was introduced -- no MT, butt joint, two bolts, FB extension glued down. Works just fine. Vega used a butt joint with two wood dowel pins worked fine too, of course like rungs on a chair the dowels shrink and need to be replaced. Bottm line is, a particular neck joint system does not make one finely crafted guitar better than another.

[Bob Moore]

Thanks, Guys. Some good food for thought.
I especially like the idea of keeping a few different bridges. Of course, I'm like the drunk who wants just one more beer in my thinking on building another guitar. I always swear that it'll be the last. But I know I have two more I want to do - a steel string with some really nice Honduran Mahogany, and a classical with woods yet to be determined. If I'm right about how I voiced the guitar I'm on now, I hope to make a couple that I can play the rest of my life and be very happy with.
Of course, retirement is about 3 years away, and a man has to have a hobby, right? (Everybody is supposed to say RIGHT!! about now).
Thanks again, and Ken thanks about the reminder that this is not the be all and end all of making a quality instrument. There's a lot of steps and they all need to fall in place.
Bob

[Dave Bagwill]

A man has to have a hobby. Has to. :-)