Guitar shapes and sizes

[peter havriluk]

My guitar teacher suggests (many times) that I consider building something smaller than a dreadnaught to learn on. Right now I'm learning on a dreadnaught I built during a visit to Dave Nickols' lair in New York. And finishing up, slowly, a dreadnaught kit project that got me interested, purchased before I went to Dave's to get a start in building.

The various styles and sizes of guitars seem to be pretty rigidly segregated, 00's have their own shape, 000's have theirs, jumbo's have theirs, dreadnaught's have theirs, and on and on.

Part of the appeal of a dreadnaught to me is its appearance. Narrow waists and rounded lower bouts do not appeal to me, and that seems to be consistent on every size/style except dreadnaughts. What's wrong with taking an existing set of plans and making the body shape match a dreadnaught's, but with dimensions consistent with the drawing's original body length and width and thickness? Internal structure would be as-designed. I've never seen this topic discussed and I'm curious if I'm being guitar-heretical or thinking about something that hasn't been interesting to anybody but me. Being ignorant, it's easy for me to think that what I'm speculating about is no big deal and might be a fun experiment that is not liable to wind up a waste of materials. And it might be one of a kind.

Advice, comments, apoplectic responses, are all invited.

Thanks, folks.

[Dave Bagwill]

Peter, it sounds like you want to build a smaller dred. There are plans available for a 7/8 size dred and even a 3/4 I believe.
Important to keep in mind that form has a lot to do with function, i.e., a 000 or 00 by tradition has a certain shape and size which in turn help define its tonal characteristics which are more suitable for certain types of players and music. Probably you know that. In any case, the wider waist of the dred shape - whether full sized or smaller - will not usually have the same quick response as a narrow-waisted instrument.
Others with more knowledge than me will I hope chime in here; I'm just pointing out that a small dred is still a dred and will behave like a dred. That is not necessarily a bad thing if that is what you are striving for, but getting a 000 sound out of a box that is a wildly different shape might not be possible.
That being said, the 7/8 size is something I've been thinking about.

[peter havriluk]

I am not particularly concerned about preserving or imitating the 'sound' of a 000 or 00 guitar, I'm the recipient of a suggestion that a thinner guitar with a smaller body would be more comfortable to play while sitting in a chair. Any tonal byproducts will be just that. I can't imagine that the resulting machine would be so tonally deficient as to grate on my sensibilities, which are so few as to be easily satisfied. It would sound like itself, and I have no idea what that might be until I build it. And my experience with design and layout and tuning a design will be zero, so I can see little predicable result coming from 'TLAR' design. I am curious as to how to bias the wood sizes of a smaller machine. Thinner braces, I'd guess, thinner body woods, or at least working on the thin side of normal. I think I'm aware of some characteristics that would remain full size on the body, like soundhole size, neck block and tail block dimensions. The string tension load on the body wouldn't change, so respect will need to be paid to that. A smaller soundboard implies a thinner soundboard would be possible and still retain the strength to cope with string load, but I'm no engineer and I couldn't define that parameter, although I might hazard a guess. I have a set of StewMac 'herrinbone' dred plans I could get reduced to give me outlines and shapes; they could at least be penciled-up to accommodate a fullsize neck and relocated soundhole and all that such a relocation implies. It all sounds like fun, but I would be doing it without any idea of what the adaptations and revisions would do to sound quality (again, 'TLAR'). There's way too many variables involved; the best I'd hope for is for a structurally appropriate body that isn't so overbuilt that it's dead.

Those 3/4 or 7/8-scale dred designs - - are these children's guitars or are they reduced body sizes with fullsize necks? I'd hate to try to reinvent something that's already available.

Thanks for the conversation. It all helps with learning.

[TonyinNYC]

I am not sure if the 7/8th or 3/4 size dreads are children's guitars, but I suspect they are not. Still too big for a child to play comfortably. You could always use a full size neck and scale length, just make sure your bridge patch is in the right place for the scale you choose.
The Martin Ditson models were the original dreadnoughts. They are adult guitars, but smaller in size, like this:


Also, check out William Cumpiano's website for pics of a Martin/ Ditson Grand Concert. It is a smaller, dreadnought looking guitar. Might be just what you are looking for:
link to his site:
http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Guitars/St ... index.html
A pic of the guitar I am talking about:


One of those guitar I pictured could be exactly what you are looking for. But, if they are not, you could scale down a full sized dread to get what you are after. Make sure you don't move the location of the sound hole, bracing or bridge plate when scaling it down if you plan to use the same scale length for the strings.
Heck, you could just go ahead and design your own guitar shape that pleases you the most. No need to keep building what has already been built before.
Your teacher is right, however, other guitar shapes are much more comfortable to play sitting down. That is primarily a function of the narrower waist allowing the lower bout to sit lower under your arm. That alone makes them much more comfortable to play. The smaller lower bout just adds to the comfort.
To be honest, I never liked the other guitar shapes until I started building. I was strictly a dreadnought guy. Now I think my favorite shape is the OM/ 000. The mold I purchased from Ken is one of the nicest shapes for an OM. I don't know what maker it is based of of, but I love it. When I get the time, I am going to build myself an OM to supplement my dreadnought. So far, all of the OM's I have made have left my house to live with new people.
Good luck and make sure you post pics of the process here. Design, and construction.

[ken cierp]

There's a free program I believe its call "G Thing" which allows you to draw guitar profiles and print the results -- simply put in the shape you want, scale it down -- done. Your only concern is to get the bridge plate and sound hole in the right place. Yes a full size neck either long or short scale will work just fine. Martin sold the 7/8 size "D" shape for a while -- might be collectables now? Guitar design in general has very few rules.

[Tim Benware]

There's a free program I believe its call "G Thing" which allows you to draw guitar profiles and print the results -- simply put in the shape you want, scale it down -- done. Your only concern is to get the bridge plate and sound hole in the right place. Yes a full size neck either long or short scale will work just fine. Martin sold the 7/8 size "D" shape for a while -- might be collectables now? Guitar design in general has very few rules.

Here's the link:

http://liutaiomottola.com/formulae/gthang.htm

[peter havriluk]

Thanks, everybody. I appreciate the feedback and information very much.