Staining and Shellac

[Joe Farmer]

I'm about to try shellac for the first time and have a question about when to stain. Mahogany neck. I'll be using the shellac to pore fill (several coats, sand back to wood, repeat until pores are filled).

Is it best to stain before applying the first top coat, or to put a wash coat on first and then stain? I know that will work with sanding sealer (stains more evenly), but not sure how it will work through shellac as the sealer coat.

Any advice? Any particular stains I should avoid? I'm planning on using oil based Minwax stain.
Thanks,
Joe

[ken cierp]

Welcome Joe,

Stain is applied to "bare wood" no sealer of any kind, otherwise the pigments cannot penetrate and get absorbed by the wood fibers. Once the wood has been sealed you can change the color by tinting. Color is added to the top coating, you then apply as many coats as needed to get to the color value you want. The final coats are clear applying as many as needed to get to the thickness desired. I always recommend that the newcomer go no stain or tint. Because things get tricky when you begin the leveling process – which is key to a nice looking gloss finish. It is very easy to sand through the tint or stain and even expose bare wood – at that point nothing matches and you can end up with a blotchy appearance if you don’t have the skill to make the repair. Shellac, does tint ---- there are even amber, brown and orange colors available – the same sand through problems can occur.

[Dave Bagwill]

Welcome Joe! It's good to have you aboard the good ship AGCF!

[Joe Farmer]

Ken,
Thank you. I believe that's what I needed to know. Let me run this process past you so I can make sure I have it exactly right.

I'll be making the heel area and headstock darker than the rest of the neck, which will be taped off and will never receive any shellac. I finish this part with stain, and a bees wax method a friend of mine learned from Randy Wood to give the neck that "bare wood" feel and playability.

1. I won't use any stain.

2. Fill Pores: Build up the headstock and heel area with 3 or 4 coats of 2 lb or 3 lb clear shellac. I'm using dewaxed Platina (super transparent) from shellac.net. Sand it back to wood, and repeat until the pores are filled.

4. Put on a sealer coat of clear shellac.

5. Build: Add tint to the shellac and build until I have the color I want. Switch to clear shellac and build until I think it can be leveled without getting back into the tint or wood.

7. Level.

8. Put on final coats with 1 lb shellac.

9. Glaze to the finish I want.

Does that sound right?

This is a test guitar so I can take some liberties I probably wouldn't otherwise.

I really appreciate your help!!

Dave, thanks for the welcome!
Joe

[ken cierp]

The sum total of what I know about shellac as a guitar finish can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51

I never used the slurry pore fill method or the bee's wax thing.

Perhaps others will chime in?

[John Parchem]

How are you applying the shellac?

Once your pores are filled you have leveled a bunch of times so the surface should be smooth. I would switch to a 1 or 2 lb cut and pad or French polish the build up coats. There should be no need for step 7 (may be nocking off some nubs from the surface with 600+ sand paper and a soft sanding block). As Ken mentioned earlier when tinting or staining (at least you can recover from tinting) if you sand through you will always see it. I followed close to the schedule you have on a violin and I spent about 10 times the amount a time on a 1 inch diameter spot than I spent on the rest of the finish process. I came close but I could still see the reworked area.

Also I do step 8 with straight DA and a pad. I melt the surface built up shellac while polishing the surface smooth.

here is a description of how I FP.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=828

Also if you use a product like qualasol shellac with additives you can get a great look just padding it on. It does take a tint.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17646

[Joe Farmer]

Thanks for the replies.

Ken - I'll take a look at the link. I've watched a ton of videos and read a ton of articles on using shellac, but the more I can learn the better.

I'm not even going to attempt to try the slurry pore fill method. I want to see right through the pores into the wood. I'm going to use the technique where the shellac itself is the filler. Keep adding coats of shellac and sanding back until there is a dull look to the surface with no shiny spots where the shellac may be sitting lower in the pores.

As for the beeswax, thats only going on the back of the neck where your hand slides up and down. No shellac on that part or any other finish. I'm a flat picker and a highly buffed out coating of bees wax makes for really fast action without the "stick" of a finish. Feels like a well used 1935 D-18.

John - I'm planning on applying the shellac the way that Brian Forbes from SixGunGuitars does. YouTube videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/sixgunguitars?feature=mhee The airplane landing and taking off technique. It looked pretty easy for my first try at this.

For the first stage (pore filling), I'll put it on with a rag (2lb - 3lb). Then switch to a pad (the french polishing part??) at 2lb for the bodying, then 1 lb for the final coats.

You say there may not be a need to level after putting on all the bodying coats? I know I will be starting level when the pores are filled, but won't there be a need to level after another 6 - 8 or more sessions are complete? I know the layers of shellac are supposed to be really thin, but I guess I just expect some uneven-ness in the buildup. Probably just from not having done it yet and not knowing shellac. I'll be using an analine dye to tint the shellac on the parts of the neck I'm doing and yours and Ken's warnings will be foremost in my mind when I grab the sandpaper! The body will be all clear.

Using straight DA and a pad (they say the dryer the better) is what I meant by glazing. Please forgive any mixed up terminology I might have.

I'll definitely keep qualasol in mind. For me, the easier the better and that sound right up my ally.

OK, off to look at the links.

I don't know how to thank you guys. You are helping me a LOT!
Joe