Ebony sides

[Dave Bagwill]

Has anyone here bent ebony sides? If so, any tips on temps and whether wet or dry is best? This will be on a hot pipe, btw. I'm a bit reluctant.

[John Parchem]

I have bent ebony bindings on a hot pipe. It was a a cutaway with a very tight bend, took 10 bindings to get two good cutaway side bindings. If I had to do a side I would thin close to .070", I would use a very hot pipe. I generally just spritz the side with water to start heat transfer. I also spray with veneer softener supersoft II the night before. You probably know this but when working hot there is a short time between the wood becoming plastic from heat, to the wood becoming brittle again from being heated too long. I have found that Supersoft II lengths that time a bit.

Here is a note a picked up from Woodie G on the OLF

What veneer softeners do is plasticize cell membranes AND increase permeability of cell walls so as to allow surface cells to fill with a bulking agent (for SSII, glycol) to prevent collapse of the cells under the highest load due to buckling or shear during bending. Much like what filling a pipe with sand does for bending pipe, those glycol-filled surface cells prevent both tension-related failures on the outside of a bend and buckling failures on the inside.

What we found over 15 years of SSII use and when we bent up all of those scrap sides we had around prior to the Big Clean:

- Most common luthiery woods (plain-figured mahogany, vertical grain maple, cherry, walnut, etc) do not need to be treated if bent using the techniques I have already posted (control the amount of water used, bend as soon as the phase change from liquid to vapor begins in the areas of the bends)

- Rosewoods and other timbers high in resin content don't benefit at all from veneer softeners. Cocobolo in particular can be bent with heat alone at temperatures under 260 deg F, reducing or eliminating the color changes seen with oxidation of the resins in the bent sides.

- Highly figured wood - especially those that are high in silica content (curly anigre) or have relatively low resistance to water-related buckling (curly mahogany, koa, and other acacias) will benefit from SSII or other veneer softener...the greater the degree of figure present and the tighter the bend required, the more likely a successful bend will be when SSII or other veneer softener is used.

- After bending up most of our orphaned side collection using three different veneer softeners (SSII, Pro-Glue, and Veneer Tamer) and Windex with Ammonia D, we found the following:

- - Veneer Tamer and Pro-Glue Veneer Softener were about as effective as wetting the wood for bending...in other words, they were ineffective when bending our 0000 cutaway (1.6" radius) in any wood tested.

- - Windex was effective on mild-figured mahogany, and reduced buckling damage on mild figured anigre, but less effective on highly figure mahogany and curly anigre on that cutaway shape (the mild figure anigre was likely repairable or could be sanded out; the high figure mahogany failed on the outside edge of the side in the cutaway but not the waist, and the curly anigre failed almost completely across the cutaway).

-- Due to our bending history with SSII, we tested just the sides thought most difficult to bend - a rift-sawn highly figured mahogany side, a flat-sawn highly figured ash side, and a VG highly figured anigre side from a veneer back board known to be difficult to bend without flaws. No bending artifacts were noted.

- Woods known to produce cross-grain ripples in bending (flat-sawn ash, some sapele, etc.) see significant reduction in cross-grain ripples when bent with SSII (and I assume, Windex), but the most dramatic reduction in ripples was due to using solid or near-solid bending forms AND SSII.

So to summarize:

- For builders making Golden Era Martin or Gibson reproductions in the woods used during those periods (e.g., no cuts; few tight waists, mahogany & rosewood) , there is little need for SSII or other veneer softener in bending

- For builders working in figured woods and bend tight cutaway sections, veneer softeners reduce the chance of losing a side to cracks, fiber collapse, or fiber delamination

- The replacement cost of one failed premium side more than pays for a gallon or two of SSII (or Windex at about 1/3 - 1/2 that cost)...cost-effective insurance

- Where bending is delayed due to what the boss used to call 'head-up-assedness', SSII reduces the chance of a broken side (although it is likely the side will need to be straightened out and re-bent ...which SSII does a nice job of assisting)

- We use SSII because it is the best product for the job, but Windex with Ammonia D will be good enough in many cases and less expensive. We use Waverly tuners in lieu of Grover open backs due to the same philosophy...buy the best product available for the very few situations where that extra performance makes a difference. For some builders, there will be no meaningful difference between a premium product and good enough - economy trumps utility in that case just about every time,

[Dave Bagwill]

Lots of good info there, thanks John.

[Rick_A]

Many thanks for the info John. I know there are different kinds of Windex. Does anyone know if this is the correct stuff for bending?

https://www.amazon.com/Windex-Cleaner-O ... B01GFLZ0WU

Many thanks!
-rick

[John Parchem]

Many thanks for the info John. I know there are different kinds of Windex. Does anyone know if this is the correct stuff for bending?

https://www.amazon.com/Windex-Cleaner-O ... B01GFLZ0WU

Many thanks!
-rick

That looks like the product, I think it is ammonia that helps the bending.

[peter havriluk]

Any gain from adding a couple ounces of ammonia to Windex or a Windex competitor? I think there's nothing sacred about unaltered Windex.

[Rick_A]

Many thanks John. Not sure if I will use anything aside from some water yet but good to know.

I'm in the process of building a Fox Bender. Doing a lot of reading about optimal thickness, temps, etc.