Or I have one, if I'm willing to build a 12 stringer. I have not made one, I don't play one, it is very seldom that I even like the sound of one. They can be really mellow and nice, though, I've heard a few like that.
Can anyone suggest a set of plans or plans in a book that would be helpful? The guy plays in band - a pretty good one - so I reckon it will be amplified as well.
Basically I don't want to build it. But a little cash is always welcomed and if I could get it done by Xmas it might be good timing.
I'll be seeing the guy in Sierra Vista, Arizona this next week, and I'll try to get a feel for what his experience and expectations are. I don't want to get stuck 2/3 of the way through a 12 string build and have the customer get all prima donna on me and insist his guitar be as good or better than, say, Leo Kottke's. Yikes.
<groan> it's a commission
-
Dave Bagwill
- Posts: 5952
- Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:44 pm
<groan> it's a commission
-Under permanent construction
Re: <groan> it's a commission
Well Dave, I've seen plans at LMi and Georgia Luthier supply.
I had a very nice Ovankol Lowden in the 80's, but the 12 strings was not my thing.
Important thing about 12 strings is the intonation setting per string (saddle/nut!) Otherwise you won't get it in tune.
I smell some reluctance in your story. Never a good thing in a succesful building adventure.
You're right in thinking twice.
Herman
I had a very nice Ovankol Lowden in the 80's, but the 12 strings was not my thing.
Important thing about 12 strings is the intonation setting per string (saddle/nut!) Otherwise you won't get it in tune.
I smell some reluctance in your story. Never a good thing in a succesful building adventure.
You're right in thinking twice.
Herman
-
Dave Bagwill
- Posts: 5952
- Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:44 pm
Re: <groan> it's a commission
Thanks H - yeah, I am reluctant. I'll know more after I meet him.
-Under permanent construction
Re: <groan> it's a commission
Thanks but no thanks --- 12 string guitars can be problematic, constant adjustments and repair headaches, a responsibility/obligation I would not want.
ken cierp
http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/
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Dave Bagwill
- Posts: 5952
- Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:44 pm
Re: <groan> it's a commission
Yep, that's all part of my reluctance; other than the fact I could use the <huge> <ginormous> <so big I could buy my wife a ring with a huge rock on it> fee, I wouldn't consider it at all - and it probably still wouldn't be a good idea.
(Yes all those things about a huge fee, above, were total lies. But you knew that. :-) )
I'll try to sell him two 6-strings instead. Yeah, that'll work.
(Yes all those things about a huge fee, above, were total lies. But you knew that. :-) )
I'll try to sell him two 6-strings instead. Yeah, that'll work.
-Under permanent construction
Re: <groan> it's a commission
The saying goes:
Build the first one for an enemy
Second one for a friend
Third one for yourself
Build the first one for an enemy
Second one for a friend
Third one for yourself
ken cierp
http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/
Store Front
http://www.cncguitarproducts.com/
KMG Guitar Kit Information
http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/ki ... ckage.html
http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/
Store Front
http://www.cncguitarproducts.com/
KMG Guitar Kit Information
http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/ki ... ckage.html
Re: <groan> it's a commission
Dave,
I built a 12-string almost 40 years ago using David Russell Young's "plan" which was just slightly different than his plan for a 6-string. While his 6-string plan results in an instrument that is clearly overbuilt, the 12-string version seems much more on target, given the extra tension on the top.
The "G" brace (assuming you have his book, p. 59) does not seem necessary for strength, as it is just a ladder type brace incorporated into the X scheme. My best guess is it increases the treble response that is characteristic of 12-strings. Nor do I think his "waist supports" are necessary. The triangles that couple the "A" brace to the sides are important, as is the tight fitting block underneath the fingerboard, again, for the strength to resist top deformation caused by string tension.
In any case, I followed his top plan rather faithfully. I did deviate from his design when it came to the infamous butt joint for the neck. I used irreversible aircraft epoxy in that area but also used a fairly heavy ebony heel cap that extended across the joint and was inlaid and glued into the inner block, to make the whole area more like a solid Spanish-type design. I also used his 1/4 x 1/2 inch steel bar, tightly fitted into a cavity in the neck, instead of an adjustable truss rod. The advantage of solid steel is that it greatly strengthens the neck and helps immunize it against moving from changes in temp and humidity. (Steel is not affected much by normal environmental changes.) Truss rod cavities weaken the neck, but add the possibility of adjustments as the instrument ages. Thus, the approach I used on the neck joint and neck construction, while stronger than DRY's, still rules out neck resets, even more so than his way of construction. If ever there was a case of measure twice, cut (and glue) once, putting that all together was one. The only possibility for adjustment after it is all done is to sand different relief into the fingerboard. DRY's suggested .04" at each end of the ebony fingerboard worked out fine in my case.
His plan also ignores the problem of intonation, but there is room for a fully compensated saddle, which is how I handled it. That, more than most other aspects, is responsible for a decent sound. Even if you don't like the harpsichord quality of the sound, at least it remains pretty much in tune. Recording engineers who played and listened to it said it would record well. Bluegrass players loved it for a novelty sound that I had never heard with that type music. Bill Carter, still a legend in Southern Illinois, could make Bluegrass sound quite natural on it. The DRY design generates a lot of sustain, but because of the intonation, it did not interfere with itself, despite the fact Bill is an extremely fast (and adept) player. He tried to sell it at his store (Golden Frets) for a year. While everyone liked to play it, no one wanted to invest in the strange sound that a 12-string always produces. When I moved from Carbondale, I took it with me and still have it.
It has been strung to full pitch with light gauge steel strings for 40 years. There is no need for a reset (as if that were possible) and no deformation of the top of consequence. With a straightedge I can see some but not much deformation, but I have never bothered to measure. It is as easy to play as any 12-string and can be played quite loud, with lots of cut.
In short, I feel that DRY's design for a 12-string is better than the one he advocated for his 6-string. I don't think you would have problems with future maintenance if you used it as your basis for the top and sound box. The trade-offs between the rigid neck with a solid steel lamination versus a weaker one with an adjustable truss rod are more difficult to assess, but if I had it to do over, I would use a truss rod, despite the stability of the result I actually got.
On the other hand, how many things do we buy with a 40 year life-span ... and counting? What does your customer expect? Eternity? That's unreasonable, especially for the kind of money we get for these things. There appears to be a natural curve with respect to sonic qualities, where the instrument gets better and better for a number of years, then begins to decline, even if it retains its structural integrity. It seems to me this instrument will run out of sonic gas long before it needs serious maintenance.
Another approach might be to follow Todd Cambio's lead in reproducing the "Leadbelly" ladder braced Stella. He might be willing to discuss construction details with you. His hand made tailpiece for the instrument is as beautiful as it is amazing:
http://www.fraulini.com/leadbelly.php
You can hear Paul Geremia playing several of Todd's instruments, including his "Angelina" 12-string (12 fret, 14 5/8" lower bout), here:
http://www.fraulini.com/sounds.php
The Angelina is a smaller bodied, long scale (26.5"), ladder braced, pinned bridge instrument, different from both the "Leadbelly" and the David Russell Young designs.
http://www.fraulini.com/angelina.php
This is a long response, I know. I hope it encourages you to take the (somewhat) lucrative commission because I think you will enjoy the newness of making a 12-string. They are not anything one would like to make as daily fare, but you really might get off trying one ... or two.
I built a 12-string almost 40 years ago using David Russell Young's "plan" which was just slightly different than his plan for a 6-string. While his 6-string plan results in an instrument that is clearly overbuilt, the 12-string version seems much more on target, given the extra tension on the top.
The "G" brace (assuming you have his book, p. 59) does not seem necessary for strength, as it is just a ladder type brace incorporated into the X scheme. My best guess is it increases the treble response that is characteristic of 12-strings. Nor do I think his "waist supports" are necessary. The triangles that couple the "A" brace to the sides are important, as is the tight fitting block underneath the fingerboard, again, for the strength to resist top deformation caused by string tension.
In any case, I followed his top plan rather faithfully. I did deviate from his design when it came to the infamous butt joint for the neck. I used irreversible aircraft epoxy in that area but also used a fairly heavy ebony heel cap that extended across the joint and was inlaid and glued into the inner block, to make the whole area more like a solid Spanish-type design. I also used his 1/4 x 1/2 inch steel bar, tightly fitted into a cavity in the neck, instead of an adjustable truss rod. The advantage of solid steel is that it greatly strengthens the neck and helps immunize it against moving from changes in temp and humidity. (Steel is not affected much by normal environmental changes.) Truss rod cavities weaken the neck, but add the possibility of adjustments as the instrument ages. Thus, the approach I used on the neck joint and neck construction, while stronger than DRY's, still rules out neck resets, even more so than his way of construction. If ever there was a case of measure twice, cut (and glue) once, putting that all together was one. The only possibility for adjustment after it is all done is to sand different relief into the fingerboard. DRY's suggested .04" at each end of the ebony fingerboard worked out fine in my case.
His plan also ignores the problem of intonation, but there is room for a fully compensated saddle, which is how I handled it. That, more than most other aspects, is responsible for a decent sound. Even if you don't like the harpsichord quality of the sound, at least it remains pretty much in tune. Recording engineers who played and listened to it said it would record well. Bluegrass players loved it for a novelty sound that I had never heard with that type music. Bill Carter, still a legend in Southern Illinois, could make Bluegrass sound quite natural on it. The DRY design generates a lot of sustain, but because of the intonation, it did not interfere with itself, despite the fact Bill is an extremely fast (and adept) player. He tried to sell it at his store (Golden Frets) for a year. While everyone liked to play it, no one wanted to invest in the strange sound that a 12-string always produces. When I moved from Carbondale, I took it with me and still have it.
It has been strung to full pitch with light gauge steel strings for 40 years. There is no need for a reset (as if that were possible) and no deformation of the top of consequence. With a straightedge I can see some but not much deformation, but I have never bothered to measure. It is as easy to play as any 12-string and can be played quite loud, with lots of cut.
In short, I feel that DRY's design for a 12-string is better than the one he advocated for his 6-string. I don't think you would have problems with future maintenance if you used it as your basis for the top and sound box. The trade-offs between the rigid neck with a solid steel lamination versus a weaker one with an adjustable truss rod are more difficult to assess, but if I had it to do over, I would use a truss rod, despite the stability of the result I actually got.
On the other hand, how many things do we buy with a 40 year life-span ... and counting? What does your customer expect? Eternity? That's unreasonable, especially for the kind of money we get for these things. There appears to be a natural curve with respect to sonic qualities, where the instrument gets better and better for a number of years, then begins to decline, even if it retains its structural integrity. It seems to me this instrument will run out of sonic gas long before it needs serious maintenance.
Another approach might be to follow Todd Cambio's lead in reproducing the "Leadbelly" ladder braced Stella. He might be willing to discuss construction details with you. His hand made tailpiece for the instrument is as beautiful as it is amazing:
http://www.fraulini.com/leadbelly.php
You can hear Paul Geremia playing several of Todd's instruments, including his "Angelina" 12-string (12 fret, 14 5/8" lower bout), here:
http://www.fraulini.com/sounds.php
The Angelina is a smaller bodied, long scale (26.5"), ladder braced, pinned bridge instrument, different from both the "Leadbelly" and the David Russell Young designs.
http://www.fraulini.com/angelina.php
This is a long response, I know. I hope it encourages you to take the (somewhat) lucrative commission because I think you will enjoy the newness of making a 12-string. They are not anything one would like to make as daily fare, but you really might get off trying one ... or two.
John